Shaun ([info]dukeblack) wrote in [info]battlestar_blog,

RE: The Orion Constellation

Hi everyone! I'm a first-time poster. Thought I'd put in a little info about stars and travelling through the galaxy, as I know a little something about it. I'll put it behind a cut because it will be a little long-winded, as there is some methodology (not much) to go through, facts to point out and conclusions to draw. The questions I have attempted (and I think, succeeded) to answer are:

* How far from Earth are they, given the configuration of the stars in Orion?

* From which direction are the Colonial refugees travelling to Earth?

* Is Sol, and therefore Earth, somewhere in the background?

I am assuming that the inclusion of such an easily recognisable constellation in the show is not an over-sight of the effects / graphics teams (who ever is responsible) but is a deliberate indication of where the fleet - and the Cylons - are in the galaxy. I am also assuming that some member of the crew has done their homework and has considered the same things I have when performing this investigation.

1. BRIEF METHODOLOGY

To begin with, I have used a great piece of software called Celestia, which gave me a rudimentary star map to work from. If you haven't got this software I recommend you get it if you are fans of space-based sci-fi shows.

Download Celestia 1.5.0 here.

In my Astronomy Laboratory I have used photographic plates of astronomical objects to determine various things. Angular separation between stars is one example. Although on plates there are two different scales (one vertical and one horizontal) for this exercise I simply assumed that the pixels on my screen and the footage from BSG were perfectly square: that is, they have the same scale in both directions. It was then just a matter of measuring the separation between the stars in Orion on the BSG footage in order to get an indication of how Orion needed to be configured in Celestia.

2. FACTS

Perspective is very important. Many of the stars in Orion are very far away from us. However, Bellatrix (the top right or 'shoulder' star) is not so far from Earth in comparison to the others of Orion. The further from Earth one travels, the more the closest stars will seem to move. The effect of perspective is that nearer stars will appear to converge to a 'vanishing point' much more quickly than the more distant stars. In effect, this means Bellatrix migrates 'downwards' (in the image) towards the stars of Orion's belt much more quickly than any of the other 'apex' stars (Betelgeuse, Rigel and Saiph). Because the stars of Orion are not all an identical distance from Earth, as one travels away from the constellation, the shape will both shrink in size AND become distorted.

Another point to note is that in order for these stars to retain the coherence as the familiar Orion, one would need to be approaching Earth in such a direction as to keep the stars in their correct places. From this, drawing an imaginary line through Earth towards Orion and looking back along it will give us an indication of the direction from which the fleets are approaching the Solar System.

3. CONCLUSIONS

Keeping all these points in mind, and the assumption this is a deliberate inclusion in the show to indicate the fleets' proximity to Earth, I have formed the following conclusions:

* The Colonial and Cylon fleets must be within 20 light years of the Solar System. Beyond that, the shape of Orion (particularly due to the troublesome Bellatrix) becomes too distorted to match what is shown in the episode.

* The Colonial and Cyclon fleets are travelling towards the Solar System from the direction of the constellation of Ophiuchus! For those of you in the know, Ophiuchus is the thirteenth sign of the Zodiac. For those of you who have no idea what I'm talking about, here is its Wikipedia entry.

* Sol MUST be somewhere around the region of the lower half of Orion. Oddly enough, on the scene where the Cylon Basestars jump in to shot, before the camera pans up, the left half of that background star field must contain Earth.

4. IMPLICATIONS

20 light years from Earth: if it is a present or future Earth, surely the fleets should be picking up Terrestrial communications? It would go some way to explain All Along the Watchtower, although not the fact that it was a version recorded specifically for the show.

Ophiuchus: yup, the thirteenth tribe will be reached by passing through the thirteenth sign of the Zodiac, from Earth's perspective. Thirteenth Cylon model, anyone...?

Please remember that this has been determined under the assumption that the inclusion of Orion was deliberate and not a mistake / over-sight on the part of the makers of the show.

EDIT: corrected some typos and added a link for Celestia - IT'S FREE!

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  • 70 comments

[info]canadiangirl_86

April 20 2008, 20:04:38 UTC 4 years ago

This is SO COOL. And also bizarre because I'm studying for my astronomy final RIGHT NOW.

Thanks for sharing this neat info.

[info]dukeblack

April 20 2008, 20:15:13 UTC 4 years ago

Then you're a fellow Astrophysicist! Although I recently jumped ship to Theoretical Physics! :-(

[info]dukeblack

4 years ago

[info]ragdoll

April 20 2008, 20:10:23 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  April 20 2008, 20:13:13 UTC

I'm just curious where you saw the Orion constellation in the episode. I've been tearing my hair out trying to figure out which ringed gas giant (I'm guessing Saturn, but not necessarily), which trinary star system (Alpha Centauri?) and which comet Kara saw along the way.

The info you've shared is awesome, especially about Ophiuchus! I figured whatever astronomy they've been using for the show now is accurate -- their scientific advisor works on the Cassini Project and he knows his stuff. But cool! :)

Oh and having read the Wiki article more closely, this particular explanation for Ophiuschus seems awful portentious...

A third possibility is Apollo wrestling with the Python to take control of the oracle at Delphi.

Especially considering the book of Pythia who was the Priestess of the Delphian Oracle both on the show *and* in historical context.

[info]dukeblack

April 20 2008, 20:19:28 UTC 4 years ago

I am expecting a very close tie with Greko-Roman mythology, considering the names of the Lords of Kobol and what not.

The Orion constellation can be seen just prior to the Cylon ambush of Natlie's ships. It's after the Quorum meeting ~ 28 mins into the show. It is claimed that Cally can see it too out of the porthole but I've not spotted that one.

I'm pleased they have a science advisor. There was a small mistake last season regarding a nova and helium flashes. Mostly though, the show is accurate enough not to make me twitch. :-)

[info]ragdoll

4 years ago

[info]elzed

4 years ago

[info]dukeblack

4 years ago

[info]elzed

4 years ago

[info]c_regalis

4 years ago

[info]rashina

4 years ago

[info]palmetto

4 years ago

[info]artemis_90

4 years ago

[info]c_regalis

April 20 2008, 20:24:27 UTC 4 years ago

Neat. Thank you!

[info]kristinl356

April 20 2008, 20:45:21 UTC 4 years ago

That's cool. I'm taking an astronomy class right now but I would have ever thought to actually apply it like that.

[info]dukeblack

April 21 2008, 03:45:21 UTC 4 years ago

I'm pleased to hear you're taking an astronomy course. I hope you do well! :-)

[info]the_justiner

April 20 2008, 20:57:17 UTC 4 years ago

Ah, what an amazing post. I love that this is more than 'here's a theory, but I have no real reasons to conclude this, so just run with it'. This is a very educational post, but not to the point where you drag on about anything.

I am very excited because next spring, I have signed up to take an astronomy course as one of my electives. I'm one of those people who wanted to be an astronaut as a kid...and still wouldn't mind it. ;]

The whole Orion constellation and 'gas giant with rings' intrigues me to no end. I honestly am overcome by excitement when I picture the fleet jumping right, smack dab into a recognizable location within our solar system (perhaps by Uranus or Saturn or some distinct planetary body - and then, finally, Earth).

Thanks for your post! And I will most definitely be looking into that software. :D

[info]dukeblack

April 21 2008, 03:47:06 UTC 4 years ago

You have astronomy courses as electives? Excellent! This is good news. :-)

I've been pondering the gas giant / flashing(?) trinary system / comet things for a while now. Maybe I'll post ideas on that when I have something that's more than just vague.

[info]dukeblack

4 years ago

[info]dukeblack

4 years ago

[info]dukeblack

4 years ago

[info]dukeblack

4 years ago

[info]dukeblack

4 years ago

[info]dukeblack

4 years ago

[info]alpinemaps

April 20 2008, 21:06:55 UTC 4 years ago

* The Colonial and Cyclon fleets are travelling towards the Solar System from the direction of the constellation of Ophiuchus! For those of you in the know, Ophiuchus is the thirteenth sign of the Zodiac. For those of you who have no idea what I'm talking about, here is it's Wikipedia entry.

That alone is enough to make me think this isn't accidental, but deliberate.

Very cool research and conclusions. Thanks for sharing.

[info]elzed

April 20 2008, 21:24:54 UTC 4 years ago

Very, very cool. And I hope you're right - that they are indeed doing all this on purpose, and not through slackness. Although the calibre of the scientific advisor sounds promising...

[info]justapalindrome

April 20 2008, 23:21:01 UTC 4 years ago

You guys are waaay to smart for me. It makes me both very happy, and very sad.

[info]sakara75

April 20 2008, 23:26:36 UTC 4 years ago

Very cool!

hmm thirteenth Cylon = original programmer/s?

[info]themightyrando

April 21 2008, 00:24:24 UTC 4 years ago

The Colonial and Cylon fleets must be within 20 light years of the Solar System.

I don't know if this has been brought up at all in the series, but I really have no idea how subjective distance is in BSG. They generally only measure distances in terms of 'jumps'.

How far can the average Colonial travel in a jump? How far can Cylons (We do know that's farther)? How far were the Colonies from Kobol? How far can either culture... er, scan? Sense? Look? Basically, how close do they have to get to the planet Earth before realizing it's there? Could they be within the same solar system and not realize?

How far have they traveled since the Colonies? Since New Caprica? If they're 20 light years from Earth, and say hypothetically they knew where it was, how many jumps would that be until they got there?

::sings to self:: if you're wondering how he eats and breathes and other science facts, just repeat to yourself it's just a show, I should really just relax...

[info]chavyrocks

April 21 2008, 02:08:06 UTC 4 years ago

lalala

[info]cgallivan

4 years ago

[info]dukeblack

4 years ago

[info]an_lagat_glas

April 21 2008, 04:15:03 UTC 4 years ago

This is awesome, thank you! And thanks for including the bit about Ophiuchus--science & myth meeting, awesome!

[info]autumnmist

April 21 2008, 04:22:09 UTC 4 years ago

That's *good*

I so much prefer reading speculation that's actual grounded in facts.

BSG has a scientific advisor and they've been pretty good so far and the 13th colony/constellation is a pretty HUGE "coincidence"

Also, another reason to support your speculation above being real is that it seems to me that rendering a randomly-generated star pattern would've been a lot easier for the show than to actually put in Orion.

Awesome!

[info]chev_y

April 21 2008, 05:39:30 UTC 4 years ago

Wow Shaun, great first post! Very interesting and enlightening. Thank you.
Oh yeah, I think it's Jupiter, also. ;)

[info]dukeblack

April 21 2008, 05:48:46 UTC 4 years ago

Yes, Jupiter. The image was certainly Jupiter. It has a ring system for sure. I wonder if Starbuck meant 'banded' rather than 'ringed'...? Now I'm making suppositions though!

[info]lougarry

April 21 2008, 06:11:29 UTC 4 years ago

dude, glad you made it :)

That was some pretty cool stuff - I loved the 13th zodiac (which I had totally forgotten about!)

I go tthe impression that the gas giant that Kara passed was Jupiter (stripiness/rings [1] and if you look carefully you can almost make out the 'spot' on the lower right hand side of the image - some one posted on the weekend). Someone also had a theory about the eye of jupiter and a worm hole in/near the storm on Jupiter, thus making Kara the comet and when you look at the image it certainly gives that impression (well I do think it does) Can't remember the post but it was in the last couple of days - I think it was this one http://community.livejournal.com/battlestar_blog/991200.html?#cutid1

Thanks for the post - it's really got my brain workign this monring :)


[1] I interpreted 'ringe' planet as Jupitermainly from the visual.

[info]dukeblack

April 21 2008, 11:41:40 UTC 4 years ago

When a ringed planet was mentioned, the one that came to mind was Saturn. There are four planets in our Solar System alone that have rings - the gas giants Jupiter and Saturn, and the ice giants Neptune and Uranus - but the only prominent one to the unaided eye would be Saturn. However, the flashback gave us an image of Jupiter for sure. Maybe she meant 'banded' planet...? This is all speculation of course. I can make lots of speculations about the show but they'll have little validity! :-)

[info]lougarry

4 years ago

[info]dukeblack

4 years ago

[info]myalltheworld

April 21 2008, 07:21:08 UTC 4 years ago

I may be being completely thick here but, after reading your post and then skimming the article from Wiki about Ophiuchus this sort of really stood out:

The brightest stars in Ophiuchus include α Ophiuchi, called Rasalhague (at the figure's head), and η Ophiuchi.

RS Ophiuchi is part of a class called recurrent novae, whose brightness increase at irregular intervals by hundreds of times in a period of just a few days. It is thought to be at the brink of becoming a type-1a supernova.[1]


Possibly one of the triple flashing stars? Because that little bit reads as if RS Ophiuchi is a flashing star.

Or, I had a crazy thought that is probably completely insane: what if the speed that the fleet is moving at makes Orion shift and change as they pass (which would be silly, right, because Earth comes before Orion?) and look as if it's flashing?
Two reasons that's silly though (That I can see off the bat), because Earth THEN Orion? And also, you'd have to be going at some crazy speeds to see stars flash. Right?

[info]dukeblack

April 21 2008, 11:58:29 UTC 4 years ago

Well, RS Ophiuchi is certainly a variable star - a nova in fact. If I postulate on wild speculation I would say RS Ophiuchi could be the system where D'anna Biers had her revelation of the five in a vision in the temple. RS Ophiuchi is a very long way from Earth - about 5000 light years - and from there, Orion would not look at all familiar and none of its stars would be visible to the unaided eye. For that reason I can't see it being a marker to Earth at this stage in the show.

I'm really not sure how to interpret the term 'flashing' stars. Could they be variable stars? That's possible. Speeding past a star wouldn't make it flash in the variable sense but who knows how they'll interpret that in the show? I can't see them being any of the stars in Orion though. I get the impression that when the ships use their FTL and jump they're actually 'leaving' space-time. All they'll see is the space they left behind one instant and the space they've jumped into the next. It's that principle as explained by drawing to dots on a sheet of paper, dots A and B. Then asking: 'what is the shortest distance between A and B?' A straight line, of course, unless you fold the paper.

[info]vivianc1968

April 21 2008, 15:16:24 UTC 4 years ago

Thanks for a fantastic post. I had to wait until today to read it because I was out for the weekend. Great job!

[info]admireddisorder

April 21 2008, 17:56:40 UTC 4 years ago

that is so beyond awesome! i was just telling my mom about orion over lunch, and wondering about how far they are from earth, considering that orion actually LOOKED like orion would, if seen from earth. ;)

so you a real astronomer? that's amazing. i wanted to become one when i was little, always found it to be the coolest job in the world - well, that, and archeology - but i'm terrible at math. took a course in college though.

thank you for sharing!

[info]dukeblack

April 21 2008, 19:42:52 UTC 4 years ago

You're welcome! :-)

I'm no longer an astronomer... I switched to theoretical physics. I have some friends that are in astronomy though.

Anonymous

April 22 2008, 15:28:47 UTC 4 years ago

Traveling towards Orion

Dumb questions. If they are traveling towards Orion with Sol in between, how close or how straight on would they be so that Sol doesn't show up within Orion or any other constellation in the visible stars shown on screen? Would it only take a degree or two difference in their course to not be visible? Would Sol simply be too dim? Is this too technical for a drama?< /br>< /br> Robhmac at yahoo.com

[info]dukeblack

April 22 2008, 16:13:45 UTC 4 years ago

Re: Traveling towards Orion

Can I just say that I really don't think these are dumb questions! You've obviously thought about this and that's good. I'll try to answer them in turn.

If they are traveling towards Orion with Sol in between, how close or how straight on would they be so that Sol doesn't show up within Orion or any other constellation in the visible stars shown on screen?

Ophiuchus is a very large constellation as we see it from Earth. The majority of it is located north of the Zodiac, which gives a better probability of Sol (and Earth) being in the lower-half of Orion or the star field around it.

Would it only take a degree or two difference in their course to not be visible?

Yes, the angle from which the fleets are approaching will certainly effect where Sol is lying in the background star field. As my own investigation produced several different locations for our system I could only answer as vaguely as I did in the original post. I did not manage to get Sol any where above the belt of Orion when I configured Celestia as though I was approaching through Ophiuchus. Yes, the solar system could be directly in front of the lower-half of Orion. On one simulation I even got it directly lined up with Alnilam, the central star of Orion's Belt.

Would Sol simply be too dim?

Simple answer: yes. Although trying to recognise it amongst the background field would be nearly impossible unless you knew lots of things about the star and had the equipment to look for it (specifically, spectroscopy methods and you could look for 'wobble' to indicate the presence of Saturn and Jupiter - but that's a lot of specific information you'd need). At a distance of 20 light years, Sol would be visible to the unaided human eye but it would not be a star of any significance - there would be thousands as bright and brighter still.

Is this too technical for a drama?

I don't think so. Star Trek seemed to manage it okay. Why shouldn't BSG?

[info]magic_8ball

April 22 2008, 19:33:28 UTC 4 years ago

Assuming that Orion was intentionally included in the background starfield, then I think everything you wrote is not only plausible, but likely. (And let me echo everyone else in complimenting you for being so thorough... this is truly a great post.) But I can't help but avoid facing the reality that from countless positions throughout the galaxy, one could look in any given direction and see "constellations" that resemble Orion. Part of the problem is that there are just so damned many stars over such a huge three-dimensional area to fall into line together, and another part is the human mind's proclivity for recognizing familiar patterns even where they don't really exist. While the constellation in the screencap above TOTALLY looks like Orion (and probably is Orion, for every reason you cited), because of the reasons you explained, they'd almost (in astronomical terms) have to be right on top of Earth to see Orion the way Earthers would. How could they not find Earth from that distance, given how many other clues they have? The math would have to be relatively simple for a civilization that's mastered interstellar travel.

[info]dukeblack

April 22 2008, 20:09:59 UTC 4 years ago

But I can't help but avoid facing the reality that from countless positions throughout the galaxy, one could look in any given direction and see "constellations" that resemble Orion.

That did occur to me but it would be very unlikely, though not impossible.

they'd almost (in astronomical terms) have to be right on top of Earth to see Orion the way Earthers would.

I settled on a figure of about 20 light years. To get Orion looking EXACTLY as it does from Earth, I could be little more than 6 light years from Earth. In terms of galactic size, that is pretty much on top of us.

How could they not find Earth from that distance, given how many other clues they have?

So far as I can tell they have no tangible clues at all. They have myths and hints but nothing substantial. The only certain way of finding Sol is to know its spectrum. Spectra are the finger prints of the stars: no two are alike. If they knew how many planets were in our system, particularly that we have Jupiter here, they could spend some time observing stellar 'wobble' and so forth. The simple fact is, neither the Colonials nor the Cyclons have the first clue what they're looking for, beyond the fact that it is called Earth. What troubles me is that the people on Earth don't seem to be broadcasting loudly as they have done since the discovery of radio waves. Some broadcast information could have travelled maybe over 100 light years by now.

[info]dukeblack

4 years ago

[info]dukeblack

4 years ago

[info]dukeblack

4 years ago

Anonymous

April 23 2008, 03:19:08 UTC 4 years ago

Comet my foot.

In the painting starbuck does above her bunk, those don't look like comets to me. They look like the ships of light.

[info]dukeblack

April 23 2008, 11:36:05 UTC 4 years ago

Re: Comet my foot.

I agree.

[info]callmelydia

April 25 2008, 17:26:50 UTC 4 years ago

I hope you don't mind, but I'm copying this to my blog (with full credit to you, of course). If you have a problem with it, please let me know and I'll take it down immediately.

The blog is here: battlestargalactica.contentquake.com

[info]dukeblack

April 26 2008, 01:15:19 UTC 4 years ago

No it should be okay. :-)

I have pondered on this subject again in a later posting, due to finding more info at Battlestar Wiki. It gives the opposite direction of approach.

Anonymous

May 27 2008, 18:38:43 UTC 4 years ago

13th zodiac sign

"Ophiuchus is said to represent Aesculapius, the ancient healer, with the serpent's venom able to cure or kill.

People born under the sign are said to be healers, but they are also said to be skilled interpreters of dreams, seekers of peace, poetical and attract good luck."

Dont know if this means anything, but there is a surprise as to who the final cylon is. Could this mean that a certain healer, doctor if u will is the last cylon.

[info]dukeblack

May 29 2008, 11:38:52 UTC 4 years ago

Re: 13th zodiac sign

Welcome, stranger....

I'm not sure about the Doc. After the episode 'Sine Non Qua' (is that how it's spelled?) I'm beginning to think I haven't the first clue who the last Cylon is. I hope they unbox that #3 soon! :-S
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